G&G (A/K/A Gor and Gyn)
Disclaimer:
My sand box—- my rules.
I have no absolutely no interest in debating the validity of either lifestyle.
~*IF*~
You happen to stumble into my sand box via a search looking for erotic material or “clarifying optimistic dialogue” on the topics and stick around to read what I have to say…….
You won’t be a happy camper…….
So best to take your pail and shovel and scoot along to the next sand box in your search list.
You have been warned.
*dons flame retardant suit*
*holding fire extinguisher in one hand and bullwhip in the other*
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Mrs. Fever brought up the topic of Gorean in the comment section of this post:
Mrs. Fever asked in the OP:
What about Gor-ian philosophy of ownership? Where subs/slaves can be essentially bought/sold/traded?
What recourse does a sub have if hard limits are crossed, safe words are not respected, etc.?
Some of the following was part the OP….…..it was edited out for “fleshing out” at a later date…Mrs. Fever “light speed style”….moved the date of the fleshing up.
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I have always been intrigued by the fact…BDSM is much like political and/or theological philosophies in the fact all BDSM has a core doctrine….
There are as many philosophies to BDSM…all start out at the same basic level.
BDSM equals: Bondage-Domination-Sadism-Masochism.
BUT……. every player has their own way of defining and implementing the doctrines.
Some of the followers of BDSM are “free-will-thinkers”; they tend to do their own thing….don’t have a lot of interest in the rigidity of a BDSM code of behavior…or in the insistence that as a participant in the BDSM lifestyle…….it isn’t really the BDSM lifestyle…..it isn’t authentic….. unless there is heavy handed sadism and “give me lots of pain” masochism and the various types of pain/humiliation etc. aren’t integrated into the activities.
Some are fundamentalist………they follow rules for how to be this or that…as dictated by others in their group…..they do tend to adhere to the SSC and RACK tenants of BDSM play…and are enthralled by the pageantry of the protocol that goes with being a dedicated BDSM participant.
Some people are zealots …….as in scary twisted fucks….. who think their way is the only way to the pure and righteous BDSM path………and believe they have some cosmically ordained right to not be a lucid, balanced human in the process of practicing BDSM…to them…..the bottom has no rights once they consent to bottom and even consider compelled consent a viable form of consent…….be it as sub or slave…… SSC and RACK are for the infidels and the weak among the BDSM flock. For this type….a bottom is worthless and merely a “thing” non-human in human form……. to be used for the top’s desires…….in any way they see fit.
Take the “Gorean” enthusiasts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorean.
The flip side of Gorean is Gynarchy FemDom.
Gynarchy FemDom philosophy……has more in common with Gorean philosophy…then it doesn’t.
It basically requires the bottom to submit to any and everything the Domme demands……without question.
Whereas Gorean is inherently bent toward “all women are slaves” Gynarchy FemDom is inherently bent toward “all men are slaves”.
NOTE:
This is where I stopped and edited the above out of the “Buy one…….get three free” blog post.
I did feel the content would overwhelm the thought I was working with for that post and I did feel the “G&G” need to stand alone….to give it more in-depth assessment.
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~*FTR*~
It is important to note:
Most people who practice a Gorean lifestyle…do not equate what they do with BDSM…
BUT…the ones I have encountered……were looking for BDSM styled interaction.
Gynarchy FemDom tends to lean heavily on the training and pain aspect of BDSM.
Both……….in their most raw form…negate SSC and RACK.
Both….to me……subvert common sense and the main theme for the way it is implemented…is illegal in most all places on the planet and to be implemented tends to prey on people who are the frailest of a culture that already gets a bad rap.
I have heard/read the argument that these forms of these lifestyles enlist the R.A.C.K. methodology.
I beg to differ on the grounds I would seriously question the stability of anyone who would give up their basic human rights and agree to be abused without confines of safe words and hard limits.
There are documented cases of “Stockholm syndrome type” that evolved out of women being held as a “coerced consenting” captive sex slave.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
This is a slippery slope I stand on right now because I could be accused of this very thing.
There but for the grace of *_____insert your deity here_____* ….
If my husband chose to turn on me and use our lifestyle in court, a lifestyle he asked to be implemented….….. Unless I happened to fall down the rabbit hole and get a judge and jury that are kink aware/friendly……
My goose …….would be cooked!
Back to what Mrs. Fever brought to the chatter:
What about Gor-ian philosophy of ownership? Where subs/slaves can be essentially bought/sold/traded?
What recourse does a sub have if hard limits are crossed, safe words are not respected, etc.?
My “first foot forward—go with my gut”—reply would be:
Q—–What about Gor-ian philosophy of ownership? Where subs/slaves can be essentially bought/sold/traded?
A—–The practice is illegal—even with consent from the bottom—- so it has no leg to stand on.
____________________
Q—–What recourse does a sub have if hard limits are crossed, safe words are not respected, etc.?
A—–Get the hell out of there and have the one who perpetrated the acts prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law!
____________________
I gotta get out this flame retardant suit………
It’s hot and I am sweaty…
And not in a good way.
The Suburban Domme 
Illegal, yes. But often glorified in writing.
Just like a lot of material available (erotic and otherwise) is based on the principle that Pleasure = Pain… Often when BDSM is written about ~ from either perspective (top or bottom) ~ the term “slave” is used, so when people go digging further, what they get is Gor.
{AND}
My personal soapbox: Slavery is a very REAL thing. It’s not make-believe, it’s not “lifestyle”, and it’s not legal. It takes the form of human trafficking, enforced servitude, and black market body trading. It is horrific and oppressive, and it HAPPENS. Every day. IN AMERICA. As well as elsewhere. I’VE MET VICTIMS. And it twists something deadly and primitive inside my gut.
So when people who are curious about BDSM see ‘slave’ and they run for the hills… I don’t blame them. And when further research leads to hard-core S&M, and stripped-of-human-rights Gor… It pisses me off.
And when people are coerced into consent and then end up in body bags… Yeah, that pisses me off too. So as far as recourse goes…
You said, “Get the hell out of there and have the one who perpetrated the acts prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law!”
When a person has been stripped of all human rights ~ “consensual” or not ~ “getting out” is fairly impossible to do.
~ End Rant ~
‘Kayso, good job and stuff. 🙂
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*Shoring up The Feve’s soap box………..making sure the batteries in her megaphone are at full power.*
Just keep going Lady Feve…if the box looks like it might buckle…….I got it under control.
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interesting post and blog. Never heard of Gorian or whatever it is. Funny how complicated people make stuff. I just love kidding round, even when I am talking to a domme whipping me – “You can do better than that can’t you…etc”
But, the thing about how actual history is inscribed into our sexual practices (as per Mrs Fever above), that is interesting. I wrote a poem on Rome and the slaves there, and I had a rave about Salon Kitty’s (now sadly closed) and the Nazi thing, and how weird it was that people want to be reminded of that. And what is it with leather anyway? I mean the history inscribed in my body is from when I was bullied at school and at home. So it is about being punched and spat on, and not a whip in sight. Nor latex not any of it. But we all have different things we individually re-enact, but what is odd is how we also re-enact these social and cultural and political things. So wow, what a post and response….
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*giggling as I type*
That Monkey had no idea what kind of a mosh pit he would get pinged from when he agreed to let me ping his brains out.
WTB…reading what you wrote…
I could almost imagine the look you might have had as you read and then typed your reply:
A mix of stunned astonishment…and some “man…….this is me too” sort of…reflecting.
I say that knowing I have worn that same look more times than I can count as I have made my way thru all the things I had to…….to come terms with my husband’s masochistic nature. Some of his fantasies at times…has me thinking
“WHO is this man?—What is this part of him…where did it come from…this part of him that writes these scripts in his mind’s eye….that glorifies his being something that was the stuff that were a (and are still as Mrs. Fever points out) nightmare existence for people who truly had to live with it…….how can he want such things in his mind?”
I know he knows where the lines are….there is no blur in the lines of what is and what is not doable as a productive part of society…but that doesn’t prevent his mind from wandering there.
He used both gor and gyn…to help “educate me”…I was one of those people who ended up in some scary places on the internet…because I followed the word “slave” to far…….that Mrs. Fever mentioned…….at times it made me viscerally ill.
I was afraid for him….not of him…but for him…in the fact he could consider being subjected to such horrors would be a pleasant experience …and I wondered if he could fall so far into the black hole of needing to have his masochistic urges fulfilled…if he could be tempted into a lifestyle that would leave him in a place that might have him in the body bag…again the likes of what Mrs. Fever spoke of.
(and damn I need to check her shot records cuz she realllly needs to be current on her tetanus shots!)
I never questioned his sanity…but I did question his reasoning skills and his stability when he was aroused.
AND…I may be completely off base by guessing your reaction and including you to this equation…..but you have mused me yet again.
And if you make it back here…I have a question for you:
Do you ever feel when under the influence of that arousal…no matter how you get there…what starts the arousal in motion…do you ever feel you could get so lost in the feeling…that sub space him…you could lose the capacity to think “I need to get out of this NOW!”?
And feel free to NOT answer that…because it is a pretty damned deep brain pick kind of thing….my own husband has a hard time having the conversation about this.
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And a re read and I need to clarify…
I am asking about the circumstances that you may relive from your own life…the bullying you pointed out…I didn’t mean to imply your fantasies are made of the stuff that makes up nightmarish hellish or—gor and gyn styled philosophies.
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*waving at WTB*
As a slide in real quick beside the Feve and say:
Yes…100% yes and I did not mean to appear flip with my answer….in relation to this:
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When a person has been stripped of all human rights ~ “consensual” or not ~ “getting out” is fairly impossible to do.
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I did come across as flip……..I have a few years working as a domestic violence volunteer under my belt……….so I do get and whole heartedly agree with what is behind the words Mrs. Fever typed.
*slides out the door…..but will be back soon!!*
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O thank you so much for all those questions and thoughts. I am going off for a few days, a shame because I would like to pick this one up when I get back…..
So your question to me. Do I get so deep in what is my masochist space that I lose the capacity to think straight? Yes. Once I hand over, I hand over. I scare myself with that. The dangers such as they are lie in when someone starts beating me, it can get out of control. I like to have people punch me and not have to hold back. So there have already been times when I genuinely wonder if she is going to actually kill me. I don’t know how hard you have to be punched in the chest or stomach to be killed. But I know I get to the space where I am afraid in the way you are when you think you might die. Afterwards I wonder about myself. I have let people kick me in the guts too…again with no idea how it will end. And sometimes, well once, when she got tired, she asked a half dozen others to come in and beat me with her….and that was not risky until I was on the floor.
Really though I do not have that many opportunities, so the risks are only occasional. If I had a domme living with me, I know I would always be coming up with new ideas just like your husband does. I know that because I did it – and nearly lost everything as a result.
Now as for the other issue, the slavery issue, I think we all understand that. I think many of us are very alert to injustice and the suffering of others. In fact I find that almost unbearable. I cannot even do any of what others do to me, but I feel that I am doing it because I am asking them to do it to me. So I try to explain why and how it helps. And I have come to learn that it has helped me – I think it has saved me in fact – my early masochism was a powerful protective device. One of my sisters that I have written about a bit is in real trouble because she had none of that protective system – she lashes out instead. It would seem better and healthier, but she is a wreck. Sorry that is a different issue – to come back to the social stuff inscribed in us and our social activity – Gor or whatever that is, when we enter social space we have to, especially as we get older, be more and more responsible for this stuff. Perhaps by sexualising things like Nazism and Slavery and the Church, we as a culture are re-enacting to understand – but it feels more to me like we are using those symbols for our own gratification, lazily without actually taking in what we are doing. I am not able to do that easily. I find slavery repellent, and Nazism likewise. And I think the church stuff is far more complicated and it does not turn me on to be beaten by a nun or a priest. Though back in the day we did get strapped etc. if someone is re-enacting their own story, that to me is doing what we need to do as masochists – inquiring by getting our own individual story beaten into our own individual body and bodies. That is why I have called my blog Writing the body (my name is John by the way). I try to understand the meanings of those marks on me….and they do mean something.
Now if someone whips me, and whips are not things that happened at school, I let them. I have had years where it did nothing to me. At the moment, I think because of porn and because of how everyone talks, I am back into it a bit. But I still mainly feel even now that when I am whipped, it is the socially accepted way for a masochist to be treated. I let people do it to me. Like I let people do whatever they like to me….which returns me to your first question….yes I do go beyond….stupid me. I say that really and honesty, stupid me.
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WTB..thank you…….from my heart…thank you.
Talk about raw honesty.
There’s a lot here to absorb….but it is stuff I have heard in different ways over the last few years, from not only my husband but from other male subs.
I’ve read the reply three times now…all three times with a wild sense of deja vu and also thinking these were the things I so desperately wanted to understand…
AND…… to find people who would be flat out honest about their experiences minus the porn-ish fluff.
Be safe in your travels and I assure you we will be here when you get back…and well….as per norm…you have mused me so lord only knows how many walls of words you will have to read when you get home. 😉
(The “stupid me” comment……yeah you can bet I’ll be addressing that cuz I have been right there with my husband…and well…the drill is:
Same bat time….
Same bat channel 😉 )
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Thank you – i will be back as soon as I can!! I was once taken aback when in response to my comment (actually it was about me not minding where she whipped me – she was whipping my chest for some reason), I said I thought most subs/masochists would be ok with it and that indeed, most would like being punched – she said no, they don’t, and was that not a bit presumptuous of me to think that we were all a bit alike. But I do feel kind of generic at times, else how could they group us all together in those broad categories? So in a way, it is a bit reassuring to hear that the things I do come from common kinds of things that happen out there in the world – with some patterns. The fact you see three or four men intensively means you have a different experience from prodomme type people because you get to know each one intensely and in some ways to love each one to some extent. Your view on this really interests me…you say things that resonate with me. I am really grateful to you, for the way you cut through. See I have been like a mouse running around the mousewheel of my fantasy, “I like being humiliated, I like being beaten, spat on etc, bla bla bla” – so much that even I get bored with hearing myself. Like some kind of compulsive animal that cannot think its way out of a box when the door is wide open. Yet we choose to sit in our self indulgent caves of words and self-serving mythologies we have built up even if it actually does eventually damage us for real. It is like we live life wiht one arm tied behind our backs. yet as I said before, masochism has actually also saved me, by protecting my male ego, by making me the driver of my own humiliation. And it did probably save my life, I now realise. But even that puts the lie to the view we tend to put about of ourselves as victims. The point is at one stage in my life I was a victim, but now I only play victim, or perhaps if I am generous to myself, now I have a compulsion left to keep playing the victim. God, I only intended to write one sentence….lol. Love you anyway!
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I personally have never been able to relate to the Gorian philosophy. During my brief stint on Fetlife, it was primarily Gorian “Masters” who violated my requests to keep things strictly educational and not send me sexually explicit materials. Many demanded I submit to them with no good reason, simply because they said so.
*sigh*
The thing that I find beautiful about BDSM and its lifestyle is the concept that there truly is someone out there for everyone. If you want to be whipped and it gets you off, there is someone out there who will get off on whipping you.
Consent is key.
The one area that I think falls by the wayside, all too often, is that of personal responsibility. Being a sub does not absolve you of being responsible for yourself. You still must know your limits and if your Master/Dom(me)/Top isn’t respecting that then it is the sub’s responsibility to end the interaction.
I feel like I’m rambling so I’ll stop, but very interesting post.
Regards,
E.S.
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First:
Welcome Elene and Venom.
Thanks much to both for taking the time to add thoughts here.
I had the fortune of bumping into both over on Elene’s blog:
http://elenesallinger.wordpress.com/
Elene, ramble away!
QUOTE:
~~~~The thing that I find beautiful about BDSM and its lifestyle is the concept that there truly is someone out there for everyone. If you want to be whipped and it gets you off, there is someone out there who will get off on whipping you.
Consent is key.
The one area that I think falls by the wayside, all too often, is that of personal responsibility.~~~~
A blogger after my own heart!
Your FL experience….sounds like that of many women I know.
I did a short lived stint on FetLife…..maybe six months and one of the biggest reasons for bailing was the predatory maledoms that would not take no for an answer.
The fact I identify as a Domme seemed to make it a challenge to take runs at me via email and “flip me”……all I needed was the “right dom” to see the error in my ways
*gag*
I was there strictly to learn about the FemDom life style and even that information was fraught with things that had me antsy and anxious.
I’m glad you made your way over to my cul-de-sac here in the kinky burbs!
I hope it feels cozy enough to stick around and chat often!
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LOL … well, I definitely like your style!
FL was definitely not for me, but to each his own. I think that (at the risk of being blasphemous) kink is like faith, it’s entirely personal in the end. We each come to it in our own way and we each must be responsible to it as well. The variations are infinite.
Best regards!
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Thank you for your invitation to share my thoughts on that topic. Allow me to comment on a very specific point of your original post: the claim to the absolute truth regarding the way of practise BDSM. Your terms “doctrines”, “fundamentalists”, “protocol” etc. hit the mark. And they haven’t even to be aimed at the rough players you characterised alone. I strongly stay under the impression that a low percentage of members in a 24/7-BDSM relationship of whatever intensity looks down on people who enjoy that kind of lifestyle only on a casual basis.
— “How dare they?! Those bedroom dom(me)s and wannabe-slaves are worse than vanilla folk, betraying the cause!” —
I myself was always irritated by rigid, ritualised structurs within BDSM play, partly witnessed at — but not limited to — TPE. Don’t get me wrong, they can appeal to me. And even if not: to each their own. But transfering this into “civil” life? I intentionally used the term BDSM play; a game where, for example, subs can live out their slave fantasies. Where they can be “slaves to their partners”, “slaves for a night”, … but this doesn’t make them REAL slaves. It is somewhat hard to explain, but becomes much more blatant if one replaces “slave fantasy” with “rape fantasy” and “slave” with “rape”.
Well, I reckon I digressed to some degree. However, thanks for reading these lines.
V.
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Venom….again….thank you for popping over here.
Your reply on Elene’s blogs intrigued me and I am so glad you did take the time to add your input here.
Quote:
— “How dare they?! Those bedroom dom(me)s and wannabe-slaves are worse than vanilla folk, betraying the cause!” —
Again…a blogger after my own heart.
This attitude is so blatantly prevalent in many “on line gynarchy communities” and it drives me to the point of teeth gnashing obsession of looking for ways to counter it for women who are just trying to get some sane, sensible information for what they have been asked into by their “wanna be sub/slave”.
I will never understand the need for the animosity—out right hostility– this group spews at “women like me” who come into the life style at the behest of a partner…or even women who come into the lifestyle of their own inclinations but won’t march their ridiculous uber-lock step agenda.
It is disgusting to watch “women” with typed words……eviscerate and blast women who are working to own their own sexuality and enjoy the spice that a BDSM lifestyle can bring provided the woman can find her own footing and her own comfort zone….with a partner who allows her to be who she is in her own dominant ways and rights.
For the life of me…..
I will never understand the ire this group has toward “women like me and our wanna be subs/slaves” other than we are a possible threat to their cash cow reserve…..as we learn to be part of the equation instead of the aggrieved or uninformed partner and the possible “Wizard of OZ effect” of exposing the whole spiel of “True and rightful FemDom” thus pulling the curtain back on the “Wizard” and well………lord only knows what is REALLY behind that “wizard”.
My guess is a set of silicone breasts and a gaff.
That gyn group *shivers*……..make the gor gang…look like the armature night at the local strip bar.
(Yeah….
I will be hitting Amazon for a super-duty heavy-duty high temp flame retardant suit, larger fire extinguisher and longer bull whip, after I hit the post button on this comment!)
NOW I digress…sooooooo ummm anyway…Thanks for stopping by the cul-de-sac…..and feel free to drop by an “digress” when you have time!
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OH never mind…goofed it…..UGH
(If I ever really understand what I am doing around here..
WATCH OUT WORLD!!)
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